Olympus Oms, 07 Jan 2023It's 5x optical and 5x digital. End of discussion.
No you don't have manual contr... moreAlso, thanks for the chuckle:
"I recommend at least a 28" 4k monitor to see the detail loss. Not the tiny phone screen.!"
Whether I use my 27" 4k screens or use my phone... the detail isn't in the display.. it's in the photo itself. Just zoom into the photo and you can see whatever detail is missing in the picture.
Displays only help when you're NOT pixel peeping and are looking at a picture holistically. When you're looking at small detail in a photo, you'll see the difference on a "tiny phone screen" just as much as you'd see it on the biggest theater screen possible.
In fact, a 28" 4k display has a ppi of 157, vs the S22U's 500ppi.
Again, showing what you know...
You added this comment but it's incorrect and delivers 0 value.
Maybe if you're legally blind and can't see a display smaller than 21", you might have a point. But for us folks with good eyesight, what does it matter?
Olympus Oms, 07 Jan 2023It's 5x optical and 5x digital. End of discussion.
No you don't have manual contr... moreLet's try this again.
Here's a video of me zooming in from 5x to 10x+, but I'm blocking the periscope lens. https://streamable.com/byf63b
Notice how when I zoom from 5-> 9.9, you can see an image, and then when I hit 10.0, it goes dark?
Now tell me.. if it's using some 5x optical one, why does it work from 5x-9.9x and then suddenly go dark at 10x?
It's because 10x is a different lens than 5x.
5x is the 3x telephoto lens, digitally zoomed to 5x.
Here's a video of me zooming in from 5x to 10x+, but I'm blocking the all except for the 10x tele lens: https://streamable.com/oqw5tm
Notice how the 10x optical zoom lens still functions, despite having blanks from 5x->9x? If you were right, then 5x->10x should all be clear. It's not.
10x ST is a true 10x lens.
It is 240mm focal length, which is 10x the 24mm focal length of the wide lens.
Your request is not sound.
In the case above, the 5x is a whole other lens than the 10x... 10x functions on the periscope lens, 5x is on the 3x optical lens.
Here is Samsung's technical comparison of the 4 lenses:
You're asking me to compare:
3x telephoto lens zoomed to 5x: 10MP F2.4, FOV 36°, 1/3.52”, 1.12µm
10x telephoto lens at optical zoom: 10MP F4.9, [10x], FOV 11°, 1/3.52”, 1.12µm
The 10x zoom lens captures significantly less light than the 3x, so yes, it will look darker, and the iso compensation will introduce significant noise.
I will run some calculations tomorrow to see how we can get a fair test between these two lenses -- may need to introduce significant light for the f/4.9 to counter the closed aperture.
Considering when you block the super telephoto lens, you can still take a photo at 5x, it makes absolutely no sense that the ST lens uses a 5x optical base. It's 10x.
AND HERE'S THE KICKER!
I did a test of RAW shooting using your suggested "5x" setting (which is not an optical selection).
When I shoot 5x in pro mode, the RAW file is of the same image without the digital zoom into 5x (it shows you the image in 3x optical).
Look at this video for documentation: https://streamable.com/gvwprk
After taking the pic, first photo is the jpg file, second is the raw (when I swipe) -- you can see the "raw" badge on the top right.
"No you don't have manual control over 108/200MP sensor. No you still don't have manual control over the 100x digital super zoom."
Sure, ignore my video where you see that I can manually control shutter and ISO over the 108mp main and the 10x ST sensor. It's a fake video, right?... sheesh.
I have full control over shutter and ISO.
Give me a setting and I will screenshot or record this setting for you...
According to every metric, it's 10x, and not 5x.
Here's how I know:
- Math. The 10mp ST lens has a focal length of 240mm and the main lens has a focal length of 24mm -- this is 10x - end of story.
- Manufacturer. Samsung advertises this as a 10x optical periscope lens. This is not their first time with periscope lenses in phones. This is a true capability of this technology. Deny all you want, 10x is possible when you can give the lens assembly more space.
- Physics. Cover the periscope lens - you can take a photo at 5x. This shouldn't be possible. Alternatively, cover the regular Telephoto lens and try to take a photo at 5x -- it'll be black.
- Math... ? How are you still avoiding this? How do you address the fact that the hardware they have in there is 240mm on the ST lens? What even are you saying? This is exactly where it ends.
Contrast all the above, with documentation, to you...
How do you know it's 5x optical + 5x digital?
"Trust me bro" "Not possible" "Fake digital"
Ok. Sure. Whatever you say.
You're legit trolling. Anyone reading this can do the simple math (240mm / 24mm = 10x), and that is enough to put this entire debate to rest and discredit pretty much anything you say since you can't do basic arithmetic.
Continue drinking the conspiracy Kool-Aid that everything is fake.
You're alone in this mindset and you'll get left in the dark and will quickly get lost behind current tech. 🤷
I guess you can always go after Samsung for false advertisement. Get that class action going. "No way Samsung is using a 240mm focal length in their ST lens. It's all fake. False advertisements leading customers to buy wrong products".
Numbwolf, 07 Jan 2023Where do I begin?
Putting aside that you're changing the conversation again (yes, it... moreIt's 5x optical and 5x digital. End of discussion.
No you don't have manual control over 108/200MP sensor. No you still don't have manual control over the 100x digital super zoom.
Take 2 photos with your s22u. 1 on 5x optical zoom and then the 10x hybrid (5x optical and 5x digital). Pixel peep the photos on a big screen. Notice the loss of detail between the 5x and the 10x. Because of the 5x optical and 5x digital, it loses details against the 5x. Because it is effected by the digital.
No apps, not even Google gives you the exact same access to the sensor, as the standard 12MP one. Yes you get fake ones, but still different from the 12MP manual controls.
I recommend at least a 28" 4k monitor to see the detail loss. Not the tiny phone screen.!
Olympus Oms, 06 Jan 2023You can't control the shutter/aperture/iso on neither super zoom or the 108MP. Not even w... moreWhere do I begin?
Putting aside that you're changing the conversation again (yes, it's an optical 10x lens, since you're going from 24mm focal length to 240mm focal length), you're wrong, again.
1. You must be living in the past (which may explain why you're not familiar with periscope lens arrays), because modern Samsung phones do not allow you to control aperture. They are fixed on the majority of smartphones (including with all Samsungs after the S10). So no, you cannot control aperture no matter which lens on the S22 U you're using.
2. You have just as much control in the Super Tele 10x 10mp lens as you do on the ultrawide 12mp lens. You can control shutter, and ISO, and both controls are responsive and behave as expected.
Here's documentation from my S22 Ultra: https://streamable.com/u2hjqt
What have you gotten wrong so far?
1. Samsung S22 Ultra does not have an "Extra Brightness" toggle -- wrong, it does.
2. Samsung S22 Ultra Super Tele is some weird 5x optical + 5x digital hybrid lens -- wrong, it has a 24mm focal point on the 1x ultra wide, and a 240mm on the 10mp super tele, which puts it at 10x.
3. You cannot use shutter/iso controls on the Samsung S22 Ultra's ST 10x 10mp lens or
on the main 108mp camera -- wrong, you can, and it works just as it does on the 12mp ultrawide.
4. You made a claim that the you cannot control aperture on the 10x ST 10mp camera, or or on the 108mp, like you can on the 12mp uw. -- wrong/moot point -- aperture is fixed on Samsung devices physically. You cannot actually change how wide it is.
- Ultra wide's aperture is fixed at f2.2
- Wide is fixed at f1.8
- 10mp 3x tele lens is fixed at f2.4
- 10mp 10x st lens is fixed at f4.9 (which is why it's so dark in comparison to the others in the sample above -- expected behaviour).
You need to get on with the 2023 program.
With periscope lens arrays, phones are capable of 10x optical zoom -- this isn't your parents' phone.
Also, dual-aperture stopped being a thing after the S10.
You haven't said one accurate thing in this whole thread, and your psychological rigidity, stubbornness, arrogance, and non-acceptance of proof/facts/documentation is just something else... You're either trying extremely hard to troll, or are truthfully extremely ignorant and just don't want to accept the current reality.
I'm legitimately trying to have a proper, and open conversation with you, but you're making it extremely difficult by not accepting the facts. I'm trying to provide every piece of documentation I can to back up every statement I make, but you continue to be incorrigible.
Numbwolf, 06 Jan 2023Lol, what a cop out. Are you trying to say I can't use manual on the 10x super tele? ... moreYou can't control the shutter/aperture/iso on neither super zoom or the 108MP. Not even with expert raw. Again, grab a real camera or use pro mode on the 12mp lenses. Then you will see the difference.
Olympus Oms, 06 Jan 2023Believe what you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's fake optical! Just l... moreLol, what a cop out.
Are you trying to say I can't use manual on the 10x super tele?
I can... https://streamable.com/kd89hp
And it works as 10x with the GCAM apk too.. So it's not software trickery from Samsung.
And you still can't change the facts about the hardware.
It's 240mm focal length on the Super Tele and 24mm on the wide.
Do you know what focal length is? The distance between the camera sensor and the center of the lens. It's physical -- the telephoto has an focal length of 240mm. This is a physical distance.... The wide is 24mm -- again, physical distance. It's a factor of 10x.
It is true 10x optical. It is literally 240 / 24 = 10. Not 5, not 6, not 7, but 10. 10x.
You can try to change it any which way you'd like, but can't argue with basic arithmetic.
10x optical zoom.
Having this discussion is like trying to convince someone the world is round.
You can believe what you want, but math is immutable. 240 / 24 = 10. 10x.
At this point, I'm starting to think you're not even talking about the S22U.
- You said it doesn't have an "extra brightness" toggle -- it does
- You said it has a 5x optical zoom -- the hardware is literally 10x (24mm -> 240mm = 10x)
- You said you can't use fully manual mode on the super zoom -- but you can.
"It's called study hardware details and follow hardware evolution."
- Seems like you need to do some reading. Periscope lens arrays are part of this "hardware evolution" and enable lenses to have a focal length 10x longer than the wide lenses on the same phones.
Numbwolf, 06 Jan 2023Where are you getting 5x from?
The telephoto lens DOES NOT have a 120mm focal length. It'... moreBelieve what you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's fake optical! Just like every other brand claiming they have "true" 10x optical.
It's called study hardware details and follow hardware evolution.
Why do you think you aren't allowed to use fully manual on the 108/200MP sensor and the super zoom? Pure logic. Digital fakes.
Olympus Oms, 06 Jan 2023The 10x still isn't optical! The 100x is the digital super zoom. But you still only have ... moreWhere are you getting 5x from?
The telephoto lens DOES NOT have a 120mm focal length. It's not possible for it to be 5x optical.
The focal length of the 10x lens array is 240mm.
The focal length of the 1x lens array is 24mm
That's 10x -- and this is NOT digital. This is literally optics. Physical hardware.
Where is your magical 5x from?
Why are you disregarding the 10x zoom factor of the 240mm focal length vs 24mm?
How else do you explain this?
Are you telling me that 240 mm / 24 mm = 5x?
Is that how you achieved your 5x?... Looks a lot like 10x zoom factor to me.
And this is before any digital zoom touches it.
Numbwolf, 06 Jan 2023To put this whole debate to rest:
- The Focal Length (this is in the hardware) of the 10x 10m... moreThe 10x still isn't optical! The 100x is the digital super zoom. But you still only have 5x optical zoom in the phone.! So that means the 100x zoom is more real information than the 10x. Since the 100x is 100x digital. While the 10x is 5x optical and 5x digital zoom.
So saying 10x is wrong, while 100x is correct.
Olympus Oms, 06 Jan 2023You clearly didn't see the link or pay attention in camera class.
It's still not ... moreTo put this whole debate to rest:
- The Focal Length (this is in the hardware) of the 10x 10mp telephoto lens is: 240 mm
- The Focal Length (this is in the hardware) of the 1x 108 MP wide lens is: 24 mm
Zoom factor is calculated by taking the maximum focal length (240) and dividing by minimum focal length (24).
In this case, zoom factor is -- WAIT FOR IT! -- 240/24 = 10x.
It's a true 10x (optical) telephoto lens -- not a 5x+5x optical zoom.
If it's a 5x optical + digital as you suggest, then the focal length of the telephoto would be 120 mm.
Please don't try to find a way out by bending the math. It's as simple as 240mm / 24mm = 10x.
is it optical all the way from 1 -> 10. NO.
It's not a continuous optical zoom -- there is digital zoom in between, as I explained.
But your whole understanding about it being hybrid at 10x is just misinformed.
The tele on the S20 Ultra had a focal length of 103mm + a wide focal length of 26 mm.
The S20 Ultra had a max optical zoom of 4x, and then digital to 100x.
Olympus Oms, 06 Jan 2023You clearly didn't see the link or pay attention in camera class.
It's still not ... moreYou still have not explained why the 10x periscope lens array does not offer a true 10x optical zoom compared to the 1x wide.
You have failed to provide any evidence about your hybrid claims.
Every piece of documentation provided by the manufacturer and media coverage refers to the 10x telephoto lens as having a 10x optical zoom.
The settings on my phone give me a 10x optical zoom selection.
Maybe you're the one that needs to read up on cellphone camera tech.
Numbwolf, 06 Jan 2023Also, fwiw, check out ifixit's teardown of the S21 Ultra to see the size of the actual pe... moreYou clearly didn't see the link or pay attention in camera class.
It's still not 10x true optical! But since you are too airheaded you will never understand the difference.
Maybe start using real cameras instead, so you can learn a little bit.
Olympus Oms, 06 Jan 2023https://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s4_zoom-5447.php
There you have actual 10x optical zo... moreAlso, fwiw, check out ifixit's teardown of the S21 Ultra to see the size of the actual periscope unit and their commentary on the changes YoY.
"The resolution dropped from 48 MP to 10 MP; *****focal length increased from 103 to 240 mm (going from 4x to 10x optical zoom)*****; the sensor area shrunk (1/2.0" to 1/3.24") but the pixels got larger (0.8 to 1.22 μm); finally (drumroll please), a slower aperture, from ƒ/3.5 to ƒ/4.9. If you absorbed all of that, we salute you."
And yes, I understand it's not an optical / mechanical zoom all the way from 1x->10x -- the actual periscope assembly enables the 10x tele lens to have a 10x optical zoom compared to the wide angle -- optically, not digitally.
There is no "hybrid" zoom at the 10x level from a 5x optical.
If this was the case, then why would I not have the option of the 5x optical zoom in the selector?
For (optical) zoom selections, my S22U has:
0.6x, 1x, 3x, and 10x.
There is no 5x -- if your understanding was reality, then we should have a 5x "optical" selection option, and then a hybrid zoom to enable 10x. (not the case)
Anything in between the above selections would be a digital zoom from the optical zoom selection preceding it. (5x would be a digital zoom from 3x, 11x would be digital zoom from 10x).
Samsung may be doing some interpolation from the other lenses to augment the quality of the 10mp lenses when digitally zoomed in, but that's out of the scope of this discussion and is not something I have looked into.
The Samsung Galaxy 4 Zoom example you shared may provide a continuous optical zoom from 1 -> 10x, and yes, this is a proper optical zoom across the entire range, but it's inaccurate to say that the S21U/S22U don't provide a 10x optical zoom (albeit not a range) via the 10x telephoto periscope lens.
1. You're misinformed on the periscope optical zoom tech
2. You're splitting hairs, even if we were to assume your understanding is accurate.
1. Periscope lenses can indeed achieve optical zoom without protrusions that we see with more traditional camera systems. Samsung has achieved 10x optical zoom using periscope technology with the s21u and s22u.
You have not provided any evidence about Samsung using hybrid zoom in these cases. I could not find a single report claiming the 10x optical telephoto lens on the s22u or s21u is hybrid to at the 10x level. You told me to read the specs and I did. Everything says 10x optical.
Here's a visualization from Samsung on their prior implementationof the periscope lens:
Here is a good article explaining the technology:
By placing the array sideways, you can achieve optical zoom greater than the 2x on typical phones.
Before the s21u, Samsung's tech tapped out at 5x. Now they are at 10x.
This is true 10x optical zoom, achieved by laying the camera array on its side and reflecting the light via a prism into the sideways array. Zoom is achieved by changing the focal point of the sideways array. For this reason, you can achieve optical zoom without the protrusion you're referencing.
The s4 zoom is almost a decade old and we can achieve similar optical zoom with periscope lenses today. The size of the sensor on the s4 zoom looks bigger than the s22u, but both lenses can achieve 10x optical (not hybrid) zoom.
2. You're splitting hairs.
Putting aside the technical side of things, the entire reason we're having this discussion is because I claimed that I'm using the phone that's marketed as having a 10x lens.
You said, "10x only? Yeah, s21/22u have 100x tele"
And every single piece of documentation points to the s21u/s22u having a 10x optical lens. Which is what I was referencing.
So aside from your misunderstanding of how periscope zoom works and how we can achieve 10x optical zoom from this setup without a protruding lens, you're also missing the entire point of why we're even discussing this...
Numbwolf, 06 Jan 2023Honestly, at this point, I genuinely cannot tell if you are trolling or not.
5x+5x optical ... morehttps://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s4_zoom-5447.php
There you have actual 10x optical zoom. Notice the lens that moves in and out. That's because it is optical. The thin phones we have today, aren't real optical zoom. Many have tried to claim it, and all was exposed to be fake. Because it is 5x optical and 5x digital. Not 10x optical.
Olympus Oms, 05 Jan 20235x+5x optical zoom. 100x digital zoom. 0x 10x zoom.
Try again. Honestly, at this point, I genuinely cannot tell if you are trolling or not.
5x+5x optical zoom
From the Samsung site: https://www.samsung.com/ca/smartphones/galaxy-s22-ultra/specs/
Rear Camera - Zoom
Optical Zoom at 3x and 10x , Digital Zoom up to 100x
From the GSM Arena site: https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s22_ultra_5g-11251.php
10 MP, f/4.9, 230mm (periscope telephoto), 1/3.52", 1.12µm, dual pixel PDAF, OIS, 10x optical zoom
The folded periscope will take over once 10x magnification is reached. This one will use the same 10MP 3J1 sensor as the other tele camera (for comparison, the Note20 Ultra periscope module had a 12MP sensor with 1.4µm pixels).
It's a "10x folded periscope" lens.
Your "hybrid" to 10x is absolutely unsubstantiated.
Spend less time trolling and actually do what you suggested. Look at Samsung's own documentation and the general coverage of the 10x optical lens on the S21U and S22U.
So yes. Going back to what sparked this whooole "discussion".
You're misinformed about the S22U not having the "extra brightness" toggle.
You're wrong with assuming I don't own the S22U
And you're misinformed about the specs of the 10x OPTICAL periscope lens on the S21U and S22U.
As you would put it... gg.
Olympus Oms, 02 Jan 2023S21u/s22u has 100x zoom. 10x hybrid (5x optical, 5x digital). Which isn't the super zoom.... moreJust read the specs on the official Samsung site.
For s22 Ultra, it explicitly says:
"Rear Camera - Zoom
Optical Zoom at 3x and 10x , Digital Zoom up to 100x"
My initial comment was:
"Unless I happened across an s22 or s22+ with the 10x telephoto lens"
Your response was:
"10x only? Yeah, s21/22u have 100x tele."
My reply was:
"No. The s22u does not have a 100x lens.
It has a 10x lens (optical) capable of 100x digital zoom."
Samsung's own spec list specifies that it's "Optical Zoom at 3x and 10x , Digital Zoom up to 100x".
In more detail..
10MP Telephoto Camera
Dual Pixel AF
Pixel size: 1.12μm
F.No (aperture): F4.9
1/3.52" image sensor size
10x Optical Zoom (
Anonymous, 27 Dec 2022The mobile King is loosing its ground... Won't be long when it will be overthrown.. Samsung is never gonna lose beacuse of its good flagship, a great market share of foldables and the A and M series are also good in demand